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Fitting of an external water pump? - thoughts/ advice please

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    #16
    +1 for Steve's external water pump system. Had to have the radiator modified because I already had a header tank installed. Steve talks you through it all. Now at 20,000 miles.
    Tanya: Brit in Canada
    71 Fed Stag, TV8, ZF 4spd auto, EWP and crossed fingers

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      #17
      Thanks Tanya, obviously good to hear you've plenty of miles under your belt without problems
      All the best
      Gord

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        #18
        My experience. Hope it helps Fitting an EEWP.docx
        Steve

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          #19
          Which model of the electric pump do people install, 85, 115 or 130?
          Although I've had no issue with the standard mechanical pump, it does appeal for a couple of reasons.
          Firstly my EFI project removes the original inlet manifold so having no thermostat and electric pump appeals.
          Secondly the facility to run fast at slow speed and after shutdown also appeals.
          The downer is where to mount, as both my tubular manifolds are balanced both running forward and then back, so my alternator has already been moved, but for the manifolds.
          Mike.
          74 Stag (Best Modified 2007), 02 Maserati 4200, 17 BMW M140i, 00 Mitsubishi Pinin

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by barkerwilliams View Post
            Stagjonno,


            Nothing wrong with the electric pump, much better location than the original. Now if you could get a pump with 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and full speeds that would be a different animal.

            Alan

            I have fitted a Craig Davis pump to my white Stag many years ago and 18mths ago I fitted a 'Stagdad' pump to my latest, red, Stag. I wasn't happy with the concept of the 'pulsing' method of control of the first Craig Davis controller, and so never fitted it. I sold it on unused to John (you got a bargin there John!). Instead I fitted a Volvo fan controller, can't remember which model but it is a PWM circuit (Pulse width Modulation) . This method does not use different voltage levels say 3v, 6v, 9v and 12v to provide different fan speeds but supplies 12v in a 'Chopped' waveform. so it can be varied to deliver full speed (on all the time) right down to a 10% cycle that is 12v supplied for a pulse for 10% of the cycle then a gap for 90% of the cycle. The cycle is very short, don't know the actual cycle but it is many times a second.
            The advantage of PWM is that the pump can be made to run very slowly but with good torque so can move the coolant from just a trickle to full speed. The Volvo controller use a temperature sensor to alter the flow rate according to the temp. ie when warming up it just trickles the coolant round in traffic / hot day it can provide 100% cycle to use the pump at full speed, no steps just a smooth increase in pumping as the temp goes up and a smooth decrease in pumping as it cools. Much better control which fixes the warmup issue.
            The old Volvo controller does not control a fan and it was my project to build a combined PWM controller for both Pump and Fan. Never got around to doing it! As a few forum members will tell you I have more projects than time!

            So I fitted the Stagdad pump on my 2nd Stag, which is better? Well a well designed controller capable if accurate pump and fan control coupled with switch off fan and pump control is the ideal. But the Stagdad setup works reliably, no electrical gremlins to spoil the party and quicker and easier to install.

            Incidentally one earlier post said the 'original pump provides separate feeds to each head' not sure what is meant by this both electric and mech pump push the coolant thru the original pump housing and then on to heads via the same waterways used by the original pump.

            - Alan

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              #21
              Originally posted by alan_thomas View Post

              Incidentally one earlier post said the 'original pump provides separate feeds to each head' not sure what is meant by this both electric and mech pump push the coolant thru the original pump housing and then on to heads via the same waterways used by the original pump.

              - Alan
              The impeller is only half the pump, the casing is the other half. The Stag block has a twin volute cast into the block as in the diagram above, this acts as two pumps and pushes coolant to each head separately. The Dolomite block has a single volute as below.

              Personally, I've never had an issue with the performance of the original pump, the system just needs a better designed header tank to separate and trap the air that the pump seal lets in under vacuum.


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                #22
                Originally posted by Mark S View Post

                The impeller is only half the pump, the casing is the other half. The Stag block has a twin volute cast into the block as in the diagram above, this acts as two pumps and pushes coolant to each head separately. The Dolomite block has a single volute as below.
                I wish I could agree with you Mark your diagram is much more refined than the actual cavity in the block. I have spent a lot of time cleaning peering into that area and can assure you there are no volutes cast, single or double. When you lift out the pump there is a cavity with a rough, rectangular slot on either side that lead to the water jackets. No shaping, nothing to direct coolant flow just a rough rectangular hole at 90 deg on either side. The coolant enters above the impeller and is simply forced down the gap between the impeller and the block.
                When the coolant is pushed into the cavity with an external pump it passes more or less equally thru the 2 slots and on to the waterways in the block. Spent a lot of time with TR7 and Sprint engines, they are the same but of course only have one rough rectangle leading to their single cylinder bank. - Alan

                IMG_3907[1].JPG
                Attached Files
                Last edited by alan_thomas; 29th June 2020, 22:55.

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                  #23
                  Thanks Alan, it’s still going well.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by alan_thomas View Post

                    I have fitted a Craig Davis pump to my white Stag many years ago and 18mths ago I fitted a 'Stagdad' pump to my latest, red, Stag. I wasn't happy with the concept of the 'pulsing' method of control of the first Craig Davis controller, and so never fitted it. I sold it on unused to John (you got a bargin there John!). Instead I fitted a Volvo fan controller, can't remember which model but it is a PWM circuit (Pulse width Modulation) . This method does not use different voltage levels say 3v, 6v, 9v and 12v to provide different fan speeds but supplies 12v in a 'Chopped' waveform. so it can be varied to deliver full speed (on all the time) right down to a 10% cycle that is 12v supplied for a pulse for 10% of the cycle then a gap for 90% of the cycle. The cycle is very short, don't know the actual cycle but it is many times a second.
                    The advantage of PWM is that the pump can be made to run very slowly but with good torque so can move the coolant from just a trickle to full speed. The Volvo controller use a temperature sensor to alter the flow rate according to the temp. ie when warming up it just trickles the coolant round in traffic / hot day it can provide 100% cycle to use the pump at full speed, no steps just a smooth increase in pumping as the temp goes up and a smooth decrease in pumping as it cools. Much better control which fixes the warmup issue.
                    The old Volvo controller does not control a fan and it was my project to build a combined PWM controller for both Pump and Fan. Never got around to doing it! As a few forum members will tell you I have more projects than time!

                    So I fitted the Stagdad pump on my 2nd Stag, which is better? Well a well designed controller capable if accurate pump and fan control coupled with switch off fan and pump control is the ideal. But the Stagdad setup works reliably, no electrical gremlins to spoil the party and quicker and easier to install.

                    Incidentally one earlier post said the 'original pump provides separate feeds to each head' not sure what is meant by this both electric and mech pump push the coolant thru the original pump housing and then on to heads via the same waterways used by the original pump.

                    - Alan
                    The Davis Craig uses PMW to vary the voltage thats how it works. The Modulations happen at around 1800 Hz (1800 times a second) so at 50% pulse width it will switch on or off every 1/1800 of a second the result the pump will (roughly) see a voltage of 6v. Its the same principle that all modern electronics use to regulate voltage.

                    "If the engine temperature cools below the targeted/set temperature, the EWP/Fan Digital Controller will step back from full system voltage back to 12 or 6 volt operation and revert to pulse width modulation (PWM) mode when highway cruising." (taken from their website)

                    So you sold on something that was designed to do the correct process and bought something that was similar.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      I am in the process of installing the Wards EWP. I do not think it is obvious how this is installed. On the picture there are the hoses and the pump that came with the kit. I understand that the return from the heater needs to go before the pump so I think I have placed the lower hose more or less correct. There are one straight flange and one 90 degree flange that can be fitted to the pump. How are they supposed to be fitted to the pump? It seems logical to fit the 90 degree to the intake and fit the pump underneath the head, but then the lower hose is too short and the pump hit the fan.
                      Kirsti & Ian in Norway
                      1973 Stag Mk2 (ex-USA), Mallard Blue, TV8 engine, Manual O/D

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by alan_thomas View Post
                        I wish I could agree with you Mark your diagram is much more refined than the actual cavity in the block. I have spent a lot of time cleaning peering into that area and can assure you there are no volutes cast, single or double. When you lift out the pump there is a cavity with a rough, rectangular slot on either side that lead to the water jackets. No shaping, nothing to direct coolant flow just a rough rectangular hole at 90 deg on either side. The coolant enters above the impeller and is simply forced down the gap between the impeller and the block.
                        When the coolant is pushed into the cavity with an external pump it passes more or less equally thru the 2 slots and on to the waterways in the block. Spent a lot of time with TR7 and Sprint engines, they are the same but of course only have one rough rectangle leading to their single cylinder bank. - Alan

                        IMG_3907[1].JPG
                        Suggest you run your pinky round under the lip - the level below the pump cover where the water exits the impeller. They will be there. They certainly are in my 1975 engine when I fitted the pump last week.

                        For comparison, here's a Dolomite Sprint block showing the single volute. The distance between impeller and "pump casing" increasing all the way around to the pump delivery port.
                        This is split into two in the Stag block to form two volutes.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Ian928 View Post
                          I am in the process of installing the Wards EWP. I do not think it is obvious how this is installed. On the picture there are the hoses and the pump that came with the kit. I understand that the return from the heater needs to go before the pump so I think I have placed the lower hose more or less correct. There are one straight flange and one 90 degree flange that can be fitted to the pump. How are they supposed to be fitted to the pump? It seems logical to fit the 90 degree to the intake and fit the pump underneath the head, but then the lower hose is too short and the pump hit the fan.
                          I installed mine a couple of months ago. The instructions are dire. Plus there were some missing parts. Having said that it is probably the best mod I have made to the stag. No more leaks in the V. Best to fit the controller inside glove box. On the right hand side where it angles. You cant see the controller in day light in any case. Any issues please contact. I consider myself an expert on fitting these now. What a learning curve that was.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Granted, Triumph never understood the difference between a water cavitator and a pump, but looking across this and other forums, it seems the stock pumps both actually work OK if you have enough radiator and airflow.

                            They actually reduce the voltage, not PWM? Not impressed. Very inefficient way to manage a motor.

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