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A coupleof water pump questions

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  • jbuckl
    replied
    The re-made covers seem to have been like it since they were introduced sadly. The fettling you’ve done is the way forward.... not had much luck reporting issues to vendors. Have had to use these covers a few times now though, due to severely eroded originals.

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  • ethel
    replied
    The new pump is now in place and the cover on.

    The pump seemed to rotate freely - but as I've not got any bench mark to compare it with I'm just going with it.

    The pump cover was too wide as Steve suggested, the extra width coincides with a bulge on the underside of the inlet manifold, so I've filed the cover and the manifold and now the manifold fits (without the manifold gaskets), I also opened out the bolt holes in the pump cover so I can rotate it anti clockwise a fraction which helps move the over size area away from the manifold, it doesn't move a lot as the pump inlet still has to fit in the saddle at the front of the engine, but every little helps. I wouldn't necessarily recommend this method to anyone else - it's just what I've done.

    I'll be contacting the supplier to let them know of the problem, but the old cover which is at least 20 years old, if not the original, had also been ground along the flange that is closest to the manifold, so I wonder how far back this interference problem goes - perhaps the bulge on the underside of the manifold wasn't originally there. I can picture engines going down the production line having to be checked and the pump covers reworked!

    Now I've just got to refit the manifold with its new gaskets.

    John.

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  • jbuckl
    replied
    Thanks Mike. This information is really important , especially for members who’ve had rebuilt kits that they imagine are ok, when the reality is that they can cause a very expensive to fix amount of damage.
    The increase in torque to turn with some of these incorrect seals can cause the skew gears to strip.
    Having tried measuring a few different seals myself , The torque to turn a rebuilt pump shouldn’t exceed 1.0 Nm IIRC.
    Last edited by jbuckl; 26 December 2019, 19:42.

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  • Lingen
    replied
    The rumours about variable spring pressures on the water seals are true! As part of the research in to the replacement bronze pump impellors being sponsored by SOCTFL, I obtained six different seals, and three original brass cages, which all turned out to have different internal dimensions! Some seals were therefore a loose fit, and others too tight, but I did eventually find a design of seals currently available that would fit all three cages properly, but they had widely differing spring strengths. It needs to be enough to resist the pressure in the cooling system, but not so strong as to cause rapid wear of the graphite seal.
    One of the seals I obtained was a rare genuine BL one in its original packaging. I felt it safe to assume that the spring pressure on it would be "Correct", so we are now investigating the possibility that a manufacturer of one that fits all the cages, might make one for us with the correct spring pressure.
    Mike.

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  • ethel
    replied
    Originally posted by Goldstar View Post

    This is old news Nigel. The parts provided by RB are correctly hardened,
    That's what I like to hear

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  • Goldstar
    replied
    Originally posted by nigele View Post

    There have been many reports of new water pump drive gears failing and causing extensive engine damage, for that reason I wouldn’t consider fitting one.

    My original pump was overhauled with the ceramic seal modification, but this is no longer available. I have also heard that currently available pump seals have too much spring pressure putting excessive load on the drive gears. Now I would fit an external pump, either electric or belt driven.

    Nigel
    This is old news Nigel. The parts provided by RB are correctly hardened, I have seen one of the new ones tested in the last 12 months. It is true that some years ago there was a batch of poor quality pumps but they are not now, as far as I know, in the supply chain. I’d be fitting Steve Hills pump anyhow if I needed a replacement.

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  • garyf
    replied
    I have a original Zephyr 6 vane waterpump for 40 that needs a rebuild if anyone's intrested (no signs of wear on the gear)
    also i have a new Saab impeller that fits a 12 vane cover but has 6 vanes again 40
    I fitted one of these to my 12 vane dolly sprint and it worked fine
    I'm working away at the moment but I can post pics when I get home on Friday eve
    Last edited by garyf; 3 December 2019, 21:49.

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  • SGN
    replied
    Originally posted by ethel View Post

    Thanks Steve I think I'll do a dry run of fitting everything with the pump cover gaskets in but not compressed and maybe the manifold with no gaskets fitted to get the worst possible interference, then take it from there.....

    Cheers, John.
    I'm not sure if there's enough material on the new cover to take a chance with a file to get the clearance, at 70 I wasn't willing to take the risk.

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  • Tdm
    replied
    Thanks for your response, I am sure when I asked only a re-furbishment kit was available.
    The garage who had my car at the time asked me if I could get a replacement, but I responded no - only a re-furb kit which is what I sent them.
    We will have to wait and see what the results are when I finally get my engine running again.

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  • SGN
    replied

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  • ethel
    replied
    Originally posted by SGN View Post

    John, check that pump cover before you fit it,See my earlier post https://www.socforum.com/forum/forum...ting-incorrect,
    Thanks Steve I think I'll do a dry run of fitting everything with the pump cover gaskets in but not compressed and maybe the manifold with no gaskets fitted to get the worst possible interference, then take it from there.....

    Cheers, John.

    Leave a comment:


  • SGN
    replied
    Originally posted by ethel View Post

    According to Paddocks website they have both 6 and 12 vane new pumps! Though I've ordered a 12 vane pump and cover (because 6 vane covers weren't listed) from Rimmers as they had a sale. I'll see what turns up in the post in a few days time.

    John.
    John, check that pump cover before you fit it,See my earlier post https://www.socforum.com/forum/forum...ting-incorrect,

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  • ethel
    replied
    Originally posted by Tdm View Post

    Where are you getting your "new" pump from, as when I asked Paddocks they said they no-one makes a new Stag pump anymore, and had to do with a refurbishment kit from them.
    The local garage who then had my car sent the pump away somewhere in Tenerife to get it cleaned up, then fitted the new rings gaskets etc., that came with the kit from Paddocks.
    Just in case I have further problems with it, I would like to know who is supplying yours?
    According to Paddocks website they have both 6 and 12 vane new pumps! Though I've ordered a 12 vane pump and cover (because 6 vane covers weren't listed) from Rimmers as they had a sale. I'll see what turns up in the post in a few days time.

    John.

    Leave a comment:


  • alan_thomas
    replied
    Originally posted by nigele View Post

    There have been many reports of new water pump drive gears failing and causing extensive engine damage, for that reason I wouldn’t consider fitting one.

    Nigel
    You can do a simple check to confirm whether have a soft or correctly hardened shaft. I would always recommend doing this check regardless of where it was purchased from.
    On the shaft gear just above the teeth is an area that should be hardened. Using a swiss file, ideally square or triangular, try to cut into the shaft with a couple of strokes of the corner of the file. If it 'skates' across the surface its hard, if it cuts into the metal its made of an alloy of steel and cream cheese

    pump shaft.jpg

    Look at the marks left by the file. The bottom one is good, the file skates across the surface without cutting and I would happily use that shaft.
    The top one is is one that wrecked my engine years ago, note what's left of the teeth and they couldn't even be bothered to machine the milling to retain the impeller

    - Alan

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  • SGN
    replied
    Be careful if you buy a new 12 vane pump cover, I bought one last year and the casting was incorrect and it fouled the inlet manifold. I complained to the suppler who wasn't the slightest bit interested so I had a refund and refitted my original.

    Cheers
    Steve

    Leave a comment:

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